Healing Generational Wounding Through Family Constellation Therapy with Marine Sélénée

Meg Kearney (00:01)
Welcome back to the Root to Rise Seeds for Spiritual Awakening podcast. I'm your host Meg Kerney and on this show we talk about all things mind, body, spirit. Oftentimes I interview authors, speakers and practitioners in various fields because I truly think that in learning about this information we can become

our highest selves and really connect with our spirit, which is what I believe life is all about. So thanks for tuning in. Hope to see you back here next week as well. But today I have a very special guest, Marine Sélénée, who is an author and family constellation therapist. And she wrote the book, Connected Fates, Separate Destinies. And for anyone interested in

generational trauma, how to heal your family wounds. This episode is definitely for you. So thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy.

Meg Kearney (01:17)
Welcome, Marine, to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on.

Marine Selenee (01:21)
Thank you so much for having me.

Meg Kearney (01:23)
Of course. So I found your work through the Hay House app. Actually, I was looking through audio books and I found your book about family constellation therapy and I loved it. So for our listeners, can you talk about what is family constellation therapy and how did you get started?

Marine Selenee (01:46)
So family constellation therapy is all about healing from your family story, from your background, your upbringing, your past, your heritage. So by doing a constellation, it will help you to understand that most of the time, what you have been struggling with, a person, a situation, recurring pattern, is actually connected to your family system.

And by acknowledging it and recognizing it, you can free yourself and then finally feeling at peace, at ease with your life. And that's exactly what happened to me, you know, like when I got introduced to family constellations, I got married at a very young age, at 22, 23, and it was a very intense marriage, you know, with domestic violence and everything, which I explain in my book.

And after our divorce, I could not understand because my father, even though he was absent, was never violent, you know, was never angry, neither my mom, like neither any men, you know, like part of my family system. So I was like, what's going on? And when I did the family constellations my first time, it actually showed me that in my system, men were weak and women were strong.

And by just picking, know, like choosing, you know, like a weak man, you know, because mentally, you know, yeah, mentally unstable, let's put it that way. I was just, you know, doing the same thing, you know, like weak man, strong woman, I can do it, you know, like I can be strong, I can stand up, you know. So it was really eyes opening for me, you know, like a true awakening. And not only for my personal life, but also...

my professional life, my career, because I was supposed to be a psychologist. And then when I discovered family constellations, I was like, I love it. I love it. That's what I want to do.

Meg Kearney (03:57)
That's great.

And Family Constellation seems like it kind of it kind of is the missing piece of the puzzle. I know you mentioned in your book that you had tried talk therapy and that kind of, you know, focuses more on who did what to you. And it doesn't really have this holistic picture. So.

What does a session of family constellations look like and how is it different than traditional talk therapy?

Marine Selenee (04:28)
Because it's a mix, it's a combination between talk therapy at first and then entering your subconscious. So it's like EMDR, Gestat, PNL, hypnosis, you know, for example.

I mean, I do like talk therapy because I think it's important to talk. However, if you don't want to share something, you are not going to share anything valuable because you are conscious of your words, you are conscious of your sentences. So consciously, you're just blocking yourself. But when your therapist, your healer, your person is going to help you entering your subconscious, your unconscious, you cannot lie.

You cannot play with it. And that's what I like about family constellations because so at first in a private session Meg, I do an initial session of two hours because the first hour is dedicated to your story. So just asking you questions about your parents, grandparents, childhood, know, like just to get a bigger picture, you know, like of what is behind you. And then the second hour is all about the family constellations. So it's only

about feeling, it's only about emotion, it's only about sensation because again on a conscious level you can tell me I hate my mom but then on a subconscious level you are just craving for her love. So we can keep going on the hate but it's not going to heal anything or we can just acknowledge like you know what you missed her, you wanted her in your life as a child.

So that's what I love about it, you know? Like you can still tell the story, but the real work, you know, like, is through your subconscious, your emotions.

Meg Kearney (06:19)
love that. And I think that's where a lot of the healing comes from. And like you said, it's easy to kind of get caught up in these stories of, I hate my mom. She does X, Y and Z. But there's usually an emotion underlying that. So I'd love to know from your perspective what happens when we just hold on to these stories about our parents. And I know you talk about

Marine Selenee (06:32)
What?

Meg Kearney (06:49)
rejecting our parents. So what are some of the ways that that shows up in our lives?

Marine Selenee (06:50)
Mm-hmm.

Well first of all, we feel disempowered. Maybe it's fatigue, maybe it's like feeling stuck, stagnant. The energy is not flowing, the energy is not moving because literally and metaphorically you are just turning your back to your present moment. You are just facing your past, hoping for a miracle or a change. So...

If you imagine yourself, you're just visualizing yourself, turning your back around, like you want to cook something, but if you turn your back to the oven, it's not going to do anything, that's kind of the same thing here. So first of all, that feeling of stuckness, stagnation, disempowerment, I would say too, because your power, your energy is only focused on your past. So you're just draining yourself to do something in your present moment, and it's frustrating.

Meg Kearney (07:27)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (07:47)
So resentment after and anger. Because you are like, what's the beep? You know, I'm trying my best and I can still not achieve that or manifest that, you know, or making money, being abundant, being joyful, my health, you know, like, but because you are looking at your parents. And so you are just addicted to it because you are in a victim position. You are in a victim mindset. And again, being in a victim mindset, you know, is just going to disempower you again.

So it creates that uneasy feelings and also in your body. You know, on a physical level, you know, like maybe you can be more, you know, curb your back, you know, like, or look down on the floor, you know, like, or having some cortisol too, you know, like around your belly, you know, the stress hormones, you know, like, it's like, your body is also an indication, you know, like of how you have been feeling on an emotional level. So being a addicted

to your story is just an excuse to not face your present moment, to not take responsibility for what you want in your life. And I'm sorry, but not so sorry, after 18 years old and 21, it's in America, but I think at 18 years old you're already a young adult, it's up to you, And of course, it's unfair.

Meg Kearney (09:05)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (09:08)
that maybe your parents, your family did not do a good job, you know, we're not there. But first of all, trust that they would not have done any better or any different because this is what they only knew at that moment. So right now what you can do is leading by example, healing yourself and by being the change, maybe your parents, maybe your family, they're going to follow you.

Meg Kearney (09:21)
you

Yeah, that is such a good perspective because it's so easy to put our parents on this pedestal of thinking that they're superhuman and that just because they're our mom or our dad, they're the only, you know, that's their only job or their only struggle. And in your book, you talk about the concept of they're your only right

parents or something I'm paraphrasing, but something to that effect. Yes. So can you expand on that a little bit and how that can help us in our family constellation journey?

Marine Selenee (10:04)
Yeah, sure, it's your right,

I do think, I do believe that we do choose our family system. And I know right now it can be like, no, I didn't choose to be molested or to have a violent and abusive. Sure. For example, Oprah Winfrey, that is now the queen, you know, like of spirituality and self-help, she had a very tough childhood. She lost a baby at 14 or 16 and everything. But her entire life...

has been dedicating actually to heal that. And her light, her energy, her spirit, I am sure tremendously helped so many people. So yes, she went through hell, but then she did create heaven for herself and for so many others. And maybe if she would have had easy, I'm using Hamas here right now, she would not have become that Oprah that we all know.

So, yes, sometimes we have to go through challenges, hard situations, but it's also for the best in a way that I believe that our pain creates also our purpose. And so we do choose our family and why do I say the right parents? Because again, for example, my dad and I...

I wrote it in my book, you know, it was not an easy relationship with him. You know, like he was an absent father. Physically he was there, you know, but he was a great husband, but really not a good father.

And I was so upset. I was so angry. I wanted the handyman father, you know? Like, I wanted the father to trust, you know? To be like, hey, my dad is gonna kick your ass, you know, if you cheat on me, you know? Like, whatever it is, you know? Like, I wanted, you know, that kind of macho but lovely father, you know? Like, I didn't have that. And I was like, so unfair because now I've been looking for him in every of my relationships, you know, with men. And then I was like, hold on a minute.

Meg Kearney (12:00)
you

Marine Selenee (12:16)
What is his story? Where did he come from? Because a perpetrator was an abused child before. You don't become a perpetrator just, of course, except a 5 % of sociopath, you know, but I don't think that children, you know what, to be completely honest with you, but it's just a repetition of a pattern.

Meg Kearney (12:28)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (12:43)
I've seen violence, I've witnessed violence, I'm gonna be violent too. And because, you know, years ago it was not really talked about, you know, like we just kept repeating over and over again. So I really think we're the first generation born in the 80s breaking free from that, you know, like checking up things, know, reshuffling the cards and...

Now I can see I take the best from my dad, I take the best from my mom, and I love things that my dad loves too, you know, and I'm like, here it is, you know, like, so you will always find something because I don't believe in complete darkness. I believe, you know, you can also find a few things here and there. So yeah, I think they are the right parents because...

Meg Kearney (13:22)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (13:30)
you were maybe one billion spermatozoids, you know, like, and you were the one winning, you know, that egg. So I think you had that strength to find that family.

Meg Kearney (13:41)
Yeah, that's so beautiful and I have the same belief that our souls choose this path in life for our expansion, for our evolution. And I loved in your book too when you were talking about your relationship with your dad, how you actually, you had a period of time where you just didn't see him. And I think it was your dad that you dug more into his family history and you realized that...

He was just repeating a pattern and that it goes to your point, but I just thought it was so beautiful how you were able to take some separation, but then you were able to come back together and figure out what kind of relationship you had with him that worked for you. So I think that's great. And thank you for sharing that in your book and here in that, in a similar vein, what if you have, what if you do have a parent who is

abusive either physically or emotionally or narcissistic and a relationship with them is just not an option. How can you go about setting boundaries for yourself?

Marine Selenee (14:52)
You have to set up boundaries. You have to. You have to give yourself permission. Again, until 18 years old, let's say 18, 21 years old, of course, you like you live under the roof of your parents, so maybe your mom or your dad will divorce, you know, the abusive parents. This, I don't know, but we say something in family constellations is with abusive parents, they lose their rights, but not their place.

So no matter what, they will always be your mom and dad. This will never change. Because if you start by estranging your mom or dad, the family system does not like emptiness as any human beings. So what's gonna happen is you are going to find someone else to replace the missing parent. You don't want that, trust me. So they belong, they're behind you.

You can of course adjust the distance, which is your boundary. And this is giving yourself as an adult, giving yourself permission as an adult to tell your inner child. So little boy or little girls that used to be, I know it's gonna be hard because no matter what, you are still loyal to them. Especially, know when they are horrible. But I'm gonna take care of you now. I'm going to nourish your inner mother and inner father.

And basically you become the shelter, you become the parents that you wish you could have had for your little girl or little boy. And that's how slowly but surely you heal from a difficult, abusive childhood.

Meg Kearney (16:32)
And I'm curious, I'm sure this is a complicated answer, but how do you know when it's maybe time to end a relationship with a parent versus do some inner work for yourself and readjust what the relationship looks like?

Marine Selenee (16:55)
you can always do in a work. It has nothing to do with them, everything to do with you. I think and a few of my clients did make that decision of like you know what I can't. I can't. And of course you feel guilty because again the child you know child is like come on how dare you you know like they are your parents. But I think when you your energy is drained, when you don't feel at ease, when you feel

Meg Kearney (17:00)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (17:24)
you know that it's an invasion of your own, know, like sacred space, know, like human being. And again, it's not easy, but sometimes it's for the best. And that's true, you know, like we have toxic parents, we have toxic family system, we have toxic friends, toxic environment, you know, like so, yeah, the parents and family is probably the harder part, you know, like to really break free from, but...

I would always say if you are very much angry, resentful, frustrated, abusive story, start to work on yourself right away.

don't even wait. I will always say don't even wait 35, 40, know, like just start at 20, 25 because the earlier you take care of it, the easier it's gonna be to navigate your life as an adult. And this will give you that strength, that foundation, like it's about me. And if right now I don't feel good with them, it's okay too.

It's accepting your own limitation in helping your parents. And I talk a lot about it. You're only your daughter. You're only your son. And you came after. You're not from their past. You're not their issue. You're not their problem. You're my trigger. Sure.

Meg Kearney (18:38)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (18:53)
but you trigger because they haven't done the work. And even when you do the work, your children can always trigger you a little bit, you know, because like, okay, take a deep breath. But that's why we need your partner.

Meg Kearney (19:05)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (19:05)
I hope it answered your questions.

Meg Kearney (19:08)
It did,

it did. And yeah, it really seems like it's just about listening to yourself and being honest with yourself. And in your book, you say to that in your personal system, you come first. So, you you have to put yourself and your wellbeing first before anything else. And my next question, which kind of leads on what you were just talking about of...

Marine Selenee (19:23)
Yes.

Exactly.

Meg Kearney (19:35)
You can't control your parents. They can do the work for themselves. So your book is called Connected Fates, Separate Destinies. So what is the difference between destiny and fate?

Marine Selenee (19:50)
That's a good question. How I see it, because then you know everybody is different, fate, it's what comes with your family system. But then you can choose with your destiny to take care of that fate differently. You understand?

Meg Kearney (20:06)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (20:08)
So yes, you have that heritage, you know what, like you just came new and you are gonna hear, you you're gonna listen, you're gonna witness, you know, so this is a fate, you know, if your family system, what they have been believe, you know, and everything, but then you can choose with your destiny to do something else with that fate. It's like the fate was to be an addict, but you can say, know what, with my destiny, I'm gonna be sober.

Meg Kearney (20:26)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Marine Selenee (20:35)
Here it is.

Meg Kearney (20:36)
Love that. So it kind of goes to your point, which you make in the book is that we can't control what our family is, what the circumstances are. We can't control what they do either with their destiny, with their fate, but we do have control over how we use the lessons that we learn from them and we can make what we want of that.

Marine Selenee (20:58)
What I say is you cannot fix, you cannot heal, you cannot help. Because I don't even think we can control actually our life to be honest with you. And so I've been trying a lot to control my life, know, and the outcomes, but you cannot fix, you cannot heal, you cannot help. And that's where the frustration is because every new child believes that my mission is to save them.

Meg Kearney (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Marine Selenee (21:27)
And then, during the famous teenager years, that's when they finally realized, no, I can't. I want to be my own self. And so, you need to accept again your limitation, like, I can only help myself. By leading, by example, by feeling better, maybe it will have a beautiful repercussion, inspiration, you know, like to others, but...

Meg Kearney (21:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (21:52)
You have to accept that. And I think it's hard with your parents and with your children. Because even with your children, you're going to do your best. You know what? Like you're going to raise them, give them everything. But after that, they're on their own.

Meg Kearney (21:53)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (22:06)
Here it is. That's gonna be their pain. That's gonna be their challenges. And I know your heart is outside of yours, you so it's like, my God, what can I do? Holding space, just being like, I'm here for you. That's the best you can do.

Meg Kearney (22:18)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Trusting them to figure it out and just being a loving presence. I think we underestimate the power of that, to your point. We're always trying to fix, to help. We always think there's a solution, but it kind of goes back to what you were saying in the beginning of just sitting with our emotions and sitting with other people's emotions and just letting them be because that's part of being a human.

Marine Selenee (22:22)
the film.

Yes. Exactly. Yes.

Hmm?

Exit.

Exactly, you know like it's just we are so afraid of ourself So we can only be afraid of the rest And when we finally just sit down and be like hey, I'm angry. It's okay

Meg Kearney (22:56)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Marine Selenee (23:03)
I'm angry and I'm

joyful and I'm in love but again I remember I don't know for you Meg but my parents you know when I was crying and when I was younger it's like stop crying you know it's okay it's okay it's okay and my mom did it a few times with my nephew and I'm like please mom stop telling him to stop crying it's just a healthy discharge of his body processing something

Meg Kearney (23:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (23:32)
We

cannot be happy, cannot be in love, cannot be angry, we cannot be sad, we cannot be anything. We can only be, you know, mental. But that's not the truth, you know, of being a human being.

Meg Kearney (23:40)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (23:48)
We are feelings, you know? Like we are all about emotions and energy. And when you finally give space to your friends even, you know, to your mom, to your dad, to your brother, sister, children, just feel. And I will help you, of course, you know, it's not going to drain you, you're not gonna drown into it. Honestly, I really think it's the best gift ever. Because then you're not scared.

Meg Kearney (24:11)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. You know that you can handle anything that comes up and you can work through it. And every time I've ever sat with a feeling, I felt so much better afterwards. Like, why are we not taught this in school? I don't understand.

Marine Selenee (24:19)
Exactly.

you

Yeah, it will be so useful, you know, like, and again, you know, like, it's not again to go so to the extreme. Are you sad? Are you hungry? I mean, too many questions here also. It's not helping. Just let the child be, I don't want to talk to you now. Okay, you know what? Like, you don't want to talk to me. He is going to talk to you later on. I promise. But not putting that constant pressure of either repress your emotions or tell me now what's going on.

Meg Kearney (24:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (24:57)
I don't even know. Sometimes, you know, at 40, I don't even know what I'm feeling. So at two years old, give him space.

Meg Kearney (25:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes, I love that perspective because when I was younger, remember I used to just come home from school and not want to talk. And my mom was one of those moms that just question after question. And now I find myself, if somebody comes home from, my partner comes home from work, let's say, and he doesn't want to talk, I can't like...

sit with it. I can't just be like, okay, he doesn't want to talk, leave him alone. It makes me feel deeply uncomfortable. And I'm like, this is so interesting how we pick up on these things that we don't necessarily like, but then we're here living them and we can kind of understand. Yeah. So my next question is about looking at the family as a whole. So you talk about how

Marine Selenee (25:46)
Exactly.

Exactly.

Meg Kearney (25:59)
Family constellation therapy looks at the system versus the individual actors. And I love this perspective because we're so used to thinking just about ourselves and our feelings and what we're doing and what they're doing. So how does this systems approach help us?

Marine Selenee (26:20)
It's because we finally understand that we are not on our own. We think that we are the only one going through postpartum, infertility, heartbreak, cancer, addiction, anxiety and so on. That's not true.

You mentioned that book before, recording our podcast, you know, it did not start with you by Mark Whalen, but that's exactly what it is, you know, like your societal thoughts did not start with you. Maybe it's your grandfather, your uncle, you know, a great grandfather. So.

What I love about seeing you in a system is just you are part of a system because you want to belong and whatever it takes you will just do it. Not for you but for them and your adult life is actually made to do it you know you do it for you so then you can gift it to them.

Meg Kearney (27:18)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (27:18)
And that's a beautiful effect, a ripple effect of a constellation. Just seeing like... It's more global. It's more whole, you know? You're not the only one suffering. You're not the only one struggling. And I can show you with your parents just or with your siblings or with any other information. Even like when Clarence and Marine... A lot of secrets are in my family. It's already an indication that no communication, no trust, no confidence.

Period. So already that is an indication. yeah, and I think it's, I love family constellation as well because on a philosophical level, which I explain in my book, it's the same thing with the world. We think we're different, we think we cannot understand everything, but we can hold space. I'm not a black woman, but I can hold space for a black woman.

Meg Kearney (27:49)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (28:17)
I'm not a Jewish, but I can hold space for Jewish people. You know what I mean? Like, it's like me, I'm a white woman, you know, so I hope my black friends, you my Jewish friends, you know, my Asian friends are gonna hold space for me. That's what it is, you know, that's when we accept, that's when we respect, and that's when we finally come together.

Meg Kearney (28:31)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (28:40)
And I think that's the beauty of that therapy too.

Meg Kearney (28:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that because it's looking at the whole picture. You know, it's one it's one world made up of many continents, many people, and everything that we do affects the world as a whole, whether we think it or not. And like you said, kind of starting with that in your family system can teach you to think more broadly of how is this going to impact the people around me at work?

Marine Selenee (29:00)
Thank you.

Meg Kearney (29:14)
in this yoga class, on the road, whatever it may be. So I think that it's great to have a broader perspective and not be so self-involved because I think that that is such a, it's a theme nowadays of like self-help and you have to take care of you and whatever. But you know, if we're healing ourselves, it does have this ripple effect around us. So, mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (29:39)
Exactly.

Like it's you do the work for you but in order to gift your best to others.

Meg Kearney (29:47)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah, and it's honestly more motivating to think of it that way versus just, I'm just doing this for me. You know, I got to trudge through the mud of my childhood and my family system. You know, if you think about it more broadly of it's just more for me, at least it's a more motivating idea of like this will help other people. I can hold space for other people. you know, it's.

Marine Selenee (30:12)
Exactly,

know, like that Suzulu catchphrase, you know, I am because we are.

Meg Kearney (30:18)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. I love that. I think that was one of the exercises in your book, right? was like a meditation. Yes, I love that meditation. That was really great. So kind of going off of this, trying to think of what next question I want to ask you here. I had one and then it kind of flew away. Okay. So a few minutes ago, you mentioned

Marine Selenee (30:20)
That's it.

Meg Kearney (30:47)
this idea of secrets in your family system and how that's an indicator of something. And in your book you say if there secrets in your family, just knowing that is okay. And then you also mentioned that I don't know is also okay. So how can we use this work even if we don't necessarily know our family history?

Marine Selenee (31:14)
Because no matter what you're gonna come with a theme for you, you know, like it's not about others It's like Maureen I've been having infertility issues, know addiction or anxiety, know like so based on what you would like to work on for you and then by telling me I was adopted I don't know anything about my grandparents, you know, like or or even you know, like you come to me with addictions and anxiety and

You're like, no, my parents never had, no from my grandparents. I'm like, something is wrong here. Something is off. That's it. You know what? Maybe it was not talked about, but something does not make sense here. So yeah, I always say, do not worry of not knowing everything because at the end of the day,

The focus of the healing is with your own emotions and express the emotions and express feelings and spoken words. So it does not really matter. It still works. Let's put it that way.

Meg Kearney (32:13)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And if we do have someone in our life that we can ask about things, what would you say the best way to approach a conversation would be?

Marine Selenee (32:24)
Mm-hmm.

Open-minded and respectful, I would say just plant a seed. Be like, you know what? It's also my story. It's also my past. I understand that maybe for you it's too painful and maybe you could also write it down or send me a voice note if you want, you know. But yeah, you just have to open that space, know, open that discussion.

but I think it's important as a parent or guardian, know, like to tell the story. I remember one of my girlfriends a few years ago, her brother was adopted and he was already eight or nine and he didn't know. I mean, he knew, but his adopted parents never told him, maybe now, you know, they say that and I was like...

You can keep it as a secret. It's his life. It's his life. And you owe him the truth. Because no matter what, he's feeling something. No matter what, you know. It's kind of the same thing, you know, when you're like, my God, I don't think he's my dad. You know, you got a feeling, you know, and it's like, yeah, no, it was not my dad. Or anything, you know, like you... If you owe...

Meg Kearney (33:28)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (33:54)
them something. It's at least to know their story.

Meg Kearney (33:58)
you

Yeah, I think the truth is always the best option and the withholding of it, it's just another way of trying to control somebody else's fate, you know? So, yeah.

Marine Selenee (34:03)
Thanks

Exactly. exactly. So yeah.

Yeah, and telling the story also helps to not repeat the story. That's it.

Meg Kearney (34:20)
Mm-hmm.

Yep. Love that. Let's talk about the concept of enlightened love. So you talk about blind love as it relates to maybe our parents, but I think this could apply to partners as well. Maybe. So what is blind love and what is enlightened love?

Marine Selenee (34:42)
Yeah.

Well, the blind love is just your loyal love to your parents. I mean, you know that your survival depends on them. So that's why it's very hard to work with children in an abusive household, because they do know something is wrong. But in the meantime, they are also loyal to their parents.

So it is hard, you know, like to understand the psychology of the child here. So that blind love is just, yeah, they're my parents. And if you read or listen, you know, to testimonials of now dual, you know, but abusive children, children that were abused, they were like, yeah, but it was the only way to connect with them.

At least they were paying attention to me when they were beating me up, which is awful, but here it is. um, enlightened love is understanding that you don't depend on anyone. You just want to love that person. You don't need to love that person. As a child, you need.

Meg Kearney (35:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (36:01)
to love that person. You need to be nice. You understand, know, like, my God, if I'm not nice, I'm gonna be punished, you know, my mom is good, you know. But as an adult, I want to be in love. I want you.

I want a life. Of course, then the feeling of neediness and codependency develops because you are in a relationship, you know? But it's not a codependency as a child. my God, if you leave me, I'm going to kill myself, you know? Which, as a teenager, we love saying, my God, do not ever leave me. Very dramatic. We love the passion. We love the drama. But this is a child talking here. So that's why I always say no one is going to complete you.

You are whole already, know? No one is going to complete you, no one is going to give you that confidence, that love, that joy, that whatever you're looking for. Because if you expect your partner to give you what's missing, that's where you are in a child and parent situation.

So I really think as well, you know, like for a successful union relationship, it's seeing each other, you are whole, I am whole. It's a bonus. It's icing on the cake. You know, it's more, it's better, but it's not the opposite.

Meg Kearney (37:11)
you

Hmm. Yeah, definitely becomes more of a choice as we get older. And I forget where I read it, but I do remember reading something to the effect of children in abusive households under the age. It was either seven or 10 when asked if they wanted to go to, you know, a safer household of somebody that they knew they still chose to go with their parents. So.

Like you said, it's just that blind loyalty that kids don't have the capacity to.

Marine Selenee (37:49)
No.

Because no matter what, are still your parents. That's what we say in terms of adoption. It's always better to stay in your family than to be adopted by strangers. Even so, again, it's beautiful, you know, like in everything. And sometimes, you know, they are really left, you know, like, you know, with no one. But it's easier and better for the child to stay in their family.

Meg Kearney (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yep. So kind of going off of that, I know in your book you talk about trauma and how trauma is passed down through our families. So how could we recognize, obviously we know when trauma happens to us, but how do we recognize if we're in a trauma state, trauma response state?

And how can we begin to come back into our body to start to work through that trauma?

Marine Selenee (38:48)
Well,

We all have trauma. Because trauma is a big word. Trauma is anything that we did not understand. So we were unable to process. When we hear trauma, we think of course of sexual abuse, rape, molestation, kidnapping, war, know, like violence. But trauma is anything that your brain could not process.

Some people can process their trauma, it's called resilience. They just do it, know, like intuitively maybe, you know, like, or maybe they're just more well-equipped to do it. But when you are still traumatized, when it's still stuck, most of the time you are dissociated.

Meg Kearney (39:40)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (39:40)
from your environment.

I can see it, know, like most of the time those people, they don't look at you in the eyes. They seem absent. You know, they seem not there. My father was like that. Or they are very agitated, angry, you know, like it depends, you know, like because you have the fight, flight or freeze, you know, like, so it depends, you know, which mode you are going to enter and you can switch as well. You know what? Like, but I think it's...

It's an internal feeling of like nervousness, agitation and hint, you know, something, you know, like it's not, you know, like, helping me. trauma at first, it happens in the body. So that's where you have to heal. It starts with your body. It starts with feeling and breathing with it.

Meg Kearney (40:29)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (40:35)
and I always recommend of course for anyone listening ask some help because it's not easy because it's frightening so really do it even you can do it with your best friend if you want just say you know what just stay there and I'm just gonna try to breathe you know through my discomfort it can be beautiful okay but I wouldn't recommend you to do it on your own especially if it's the first time and it feels very big and then it's naming the trauma

And sometimes, of course, you can create blackouts, blockages, know, protecting that memory. Memories that can be triggered at 25, 26, 30, 45. Who knows, you know, after giving birth, you know, during postpartum, you know, before getting pregnant. So I think the more you know yourself, the more you listen to your body and how you feel. And I would say every time there is a feeling of uneasiness,

place one hand on your chest, one hand on your belly and just breathe and be like okay I'm just going to check in with myself what's going on here and just that is going to help you you know like to relax and feeling better and then of course if you feel it's recurring and you cannot find a way from really breaking free from it therapy will be the best answer

Meg Kearney (41:57)
Mm.

Marine Selenee (41:58)
and family constellations, yeah, we do a lot of trauma, know, like for sure, but it's just so beautiful to see a person. The light is back. You see it on the face. There is a shift.

Meg Kearney (42:08)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's that feeling of safety within the self. And I love that suggestion you gave about hand to heart and hand to chest, hand to belly, because sometimes I personally forget just how nice it is to just kind of like hold yourself. It's a very underrated practice. know, it's something that's so accessible to everybody and yeah, free and it's

Marine Selenee (42:15)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, and it's

Meg Kearney (42:40)
It's powerful. honestly is. So I love that. One of the things that you you touch on a little bit in your book, but I don't know if you've seen this in in your practice more because I'm curious about. Obviously, everybody, you know, kind of focuses on parents and abusive parents and, know, things like that. But I'm curious about a sibling in the family system that is.

maybe unstable, mentally ill, or has some sort of other illness, how does this impact the family system?

Marine Selenee (43:19)
does impact it, you know, because no matter what that sibling is experiencing something, he's doing a repetition on behalf of one or multiple ancestors. So, of course, I mean, it's like my brother was violent with me and my parents never protected me. Or my sister is handicapped, you know, like, and most of the time, those siblings, and it depends, you it varies, but it's like the feeling of guilt.

Meg Kearney (43:30)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (43:49)
I'm not handicapped, is or she is. The shame. It can also create a rupture between the sibling and her parents. You did not protect me. So again, it's going to be the same thing, recognizing that my sibling, my brother, my sister was abusive. And again, you can also set up strong boundaries and make the conscious choice. I don't want to see them anymore.

But we worked with them, of course, you know, like...

with the siblings but also with the miscarriages, with the unborn siblings too. know, the unborn siblings also have a strong impact, you know, like on us. So, no, no, siblings are important, parents are important, grandparents too. If you know great-grandparents, it's amazing just in case. But also have siblings because sometimes, you know, you can have a half sibling or step-sibling, that abused you.

So of course, you know, like as a matter of fact, you know, he's going to have an impact on you. So yeah. And also it's very important to recognize all of your born and unborn siblings. Very important.

Meg Kearney (44:52)
Mm.

Would those be the absent family members?

Marine Selenee (45:06)
Yes, the miscarriage, the stillborn, the toddler who passed away at two years old, you know? Sometimes I feel like, okay, Marina, I have two brothers. And then they're like, I forgot one, but he died at six months. Yeah, but he still belongs, you know what? And maybe that's where your answer is waiting for you, you know? So yes, it's very important.

Meg Kearney (45:22)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And one of the examples you gave in your book, I think you were talking about how somebody was, it was a family member who had passed away, but someone was like living that family member's fate kind of. Yeah. Which is so interesting because I wouldn't personally think of like miscarriages or anything like that to include, but like you said, they are part of the family system and

Marine Selenee (45:43)
Yeah, yeah, probably. Yes, yes, yes, yes, that's very common.

Meg Kearney (45:57)
it makes sense. So one of the other things that you talk about is the dynamic of forgiveness. And I've never seen someone talk about forgiveness in this way, and I'm obsessed with it. I was like, this makes so much sense. So and you talk about how important it is to include

the perpetrator in our family system because they are a part of it. So can you talk about why forgiveness is not helpful necessarily and what to do instead?

Marine Selenee (46:34)
Yeah, because that's not the dynamic of consenting. While we don't forgive, if you any constellations, let's put it that way. But then again, it's, you know, sometimes you're gonna say, but my forgiving and your consenting are the same. And maybe, you know what, like, but telling your parents I forgive you, you are placing yourself as a big one and your parent as a small one. So you create an imbalance.

Meg Kearney (46:38)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Marine Selenee (47:04)
because your parents will always be the big one and you will always be the little one. And forgiving implies like, I am better than you. You know what? Like you are a child. You cannot forgive your parents if they fucked up, they fucked up. That's it. Asking you to forgive a violent father for what? That was not your fault. You didn't choose.

So the only thing powerful is to consent, is to accept that yes, you know what, you are violent, now I move on. And that's the same thing with any perpetrators, which I also explain in my book, you know, like because I've navigated, you know, those feelings of like, what do I do, you know, like, do I forgive, do I forget, like, but as soon as I just be like, you know what, this is what happened. I cannot change it. It's part of me, it's part of my life.

Meg Kearney (47:36)
Mm.

Marine Selenee (47:57)
So I can either take it as one of my strengths or dying with it, meaning giving away your power to that perpetrator. And when you finally place a perpetrator as an extended part of your family system, okay, like it's an extended family, okay? It belongs. So you are not looking for any more answers, you know, like finding a way, okay, what can I do? What can I do? It's there. And it can either kill me or...

Meg Kearney (48:18)
Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (48:23)
make me even feel more alive. And when you finally give yourself that permission to face it, to accept it, to face that pain, to face that rage, that anger, you know, like, you feel good. And be like, you know what, that's your responsibility. What you did was wrong. I am not responsible for any of this. Because that's also the problem, you know, it's like, what did you do?

Meg Kearney (48:24)
Hmm.

Marine Selenee (48:47)
Especially with sexual abuse with women. We're not gonna lie. What did you wear? Maybe you were too flirty but you are drunk and so what you could be drunk and fully naked. I don't care You don't deserve that treatment You don't deserve that violation, you know if you're intimacy And that's the same thing, you know, because we can say my father was violent, but it's not an excuse It could have done different So I don't excuse any one

But for the help of my client, we're going to accept. We're going to consent. That's how we can move on. It does not define me. It's not a life sentence.

Meg Kearney (49:19)
you

Marine Selenee (49:27)
And then you had another question for me, Meg, following that, but it was... You asked for the forgiveness and then...

When do we practice? No, no, what do we do? No, no, no, no, no, I think I answered. No, no, that's okay. No, no, covered everything. No, no.

Meg Kearney (49:39)
Yeah, you did,

you did. And yeah, I love this idea because like you said, you didn't ask for any of that. You can accept that it was part of your fate and that it's there to help you. But when we put all this pressure on ourselves to forgive somebody else for doing something shitty to us, that's not fair. Why do we have to do something and, you know,

Marine Selenee (50:06)
Thanks.

Meg Kearney (50:07)
offer them something so that they feel better. We're supposed to feel better, forgiveness has never necessarily made me feel better.

Marine Selenee (50:16)
It

never did. Actually, it never worked for me and it's like also the cheater being like, please forgive me. Me forgive you what? You carry your guilt, you carry your responsibility and me if I want to leave, I'm just gonna leave. Why should I be in charge of your own shit? Why should I forgive you? No, I don't want to forgive you. That's it. So I'm leaving. So that's what it is. You're responsible for your thing. Period.

Meg Kearney (50:22)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. That's... Yep.

Mm-hmm.

a great perspective. only have a couple of questions left, but I really wanted to ask this one. So you talk about the three orders of love in your book and we talked about belonging. We kind of talked about balance a little bit, but precedence is the one that I'm most curious about because you talk about the importance of your partnership coming first. And yes, so can you explain precedence and why it's important?

Marine Selenee (51:09)
Yes, that's the end.

It's just like everything has an order in a family system and disorder creates your struggle. So at first, your first family, your primary family is your parents, okay, and you and your siblings if you have, and then you're gonna leave that first family system to create a new one. And your partner,

as priority over your parents. And I'm just gonna give you a very easy example. The famous mother-in-law, but we can also say father-in-law, let's put it that way, to be equal. When your mother-in-law, when your father-in-law is gonna tell you something, you know, that, I would do that, you know, instead, or, you should do this, you know, like, my son, could you please come, you know, like your wife and me, you are going to lose your mind.

Meg Kearney (52:06)
you

Marine Selenee (52:07)
It's going to

damage your relationship because it's like, I'm sorry, with whom are you doing life right now? Your mom, your dad, me, you know, where am I? And until your partner does not choose you entirely, it's going to create frictions. And I'm sure you have multiple examples around you.

Meg Kearney (52:27)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (52:29)
So

that's why it is so important. It's like I respect my parents, I take the best from my family, my partner takes the best from her or his family, and then together we are going to create our family. But it's the same thing also when one of the partners is like, no, my family knows better. We should do like this. So you don't love me. You love an idea of me, but you don't love me.

Meg Kearney (52:53)
Mm.

Marine Selenee (52:54)
three successful ingredients for your relationship very quickly. The first one is accepting your partner as 100%. The second one is accepting the family of your partner at 100%. And then the third one is accepting the destiny of your partner. And it means that sometimes that his destiny might differ and you might get divorced. It's acceptance.

Meg Kearney (53:19)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Marine Selenee (53:22)
And how many times like, I want him to change, I want her to change. If you start like that, honestly, you can end up the relationship. Now it's not gonna go anywhere. At least not in a very beautiful divine union. If you want a shitty marriage, yeah, sure, go for it. No problem.

Meg Kearney (53:30)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. that's so good. It's so good because it kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier about like parents or kids trying to fix their parents. And if we don't heal those dynamics, we will also try to fix our partners. And I still like struggle with this. I'm in a relationship and I talk to my partner about this all the time because it's it is just acceptance. That's

Marine Selenee (53:54)
Exactly.

Meg Kearney (54:05)
Acceptance is on par with love. You can't love somebody without accepting them. And it is so much, it's such worthwhile work to get there. And even it, like you said, if it means that you go your separate ways, that's okay too.

Marine Selenee (54:21)
Sometimes it is, you know? I don't think, I really don't think divorce or separation is a failure. It's actually for me an act of love. It's like, you know what? I love you so much. I don't want to destroy that one year, 10 years, 30 years. I had a great chapter with you and I just want your happiness. That's an act of love for me.

Meg Kearney (54:27)
Mm-mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yep, I completely agree. My final question for you is, I think it's your last chapter in the book, but you talk about healing as an act of faith and how healing can lead us to freedom. So in your mind, how does this work and any other work we choose to do? is that an act of faith and freedom to heal ourselves?

Marine Selenee (55:13)
Because I think it takes a lot of courage. It's not easy to be happy because you're afraid of losing it. And you do know that nothing lasts forever. But it's easier to be miserable, to complain, to be a victim. And of course, you can find multiple examples, know, like multiple reasons, you know, like to complain. But is it really the point of life to complain every day for 80 years, 90 years?

Okay, well, why not? You know, if it's your choice, I'm no one to judge you. But when you take that step, that leap of faith, because it's gonna be hard sometimes, sometimes you don't want to do the work, sometimes you're gonna be resistant, but it's like, no, you know what? I still want to leave the world in a better place that I came. I still want to give my best to the people that I love, to my environment. Healing for me is believing in a better world.

That's really what it is. And all of those doers, all of those brave people trying to heal, trying to do things, I think they are the ones.

making that world a better place. And I mean all of all of them.

That's why for me it's freedom. Because when you're a happy person,

you make others happy. That's it. And again, you're not happy like a Teletubbies on ecstasy, know, like 24 hours, 7 days a week, but it's just, you know, a perception like, you know what? I'm angry. I'm going to say I'm angry, but let me also just go back to myself and okay, let me take a deep breath. I feel better. I can be here.

We are, there is so much anger right now. So much. Well actually at the end of the day I think we want all the same thing. To be happy. To give the best to our children. To love. And that's it.

Meg Kearney (56:54)
Mm-hmm.

And if we can just keep healing and meeting, you know, some of that anger that other people might have with love, it can diffuse it like that, you know? So that's so beautiful. I love that image. And hopefully your book is one of those vehicles for people to start this healing. So for listeners that are resonating, are curious about family consolation therapy, where's the best place for them to connect with you?

Marine Selenee (57:09)
Exactly.

Thank you.

On my website, marineselenee.com, my Instagram as well, marineselenee. My book is on Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, everywhere, connected faiths, separate destinies, and I'm pretty easy to connect with, you know, like, so you can just DM me or send me an email.

Meg Kearney (57:50)
Awesome, well thank you so much Marine and this has been so fun.

Marine Selenee (57:53)
Thank you so much, Megan, for your time.

Meg Kearney (58:05)
The joys of family wounds, family trauma and unpacking it all. Thank you so much for listening today. I truly think that the systems approach is such a nice way to look at our family as a whole and to learn to not take things so personally. Our family is just acting the way it's meant to based on past generations and

The healing really starts with us. While we don't have control of our own fate and our family, we do have control over how we use that and how we craft our destiny. So I really hope you enjoyed this episode. I will have all of the links to Marine's book, her website, her Instagram in the show notes. And hopefully I'll see you back here next week.

Much love to you all.