Communicate with Money and Diversify Your Definition of Wealth with Elizabeth Husserl

Meg Kearney (00:00)
Welcome back everyone to another episode of the route to rise seeds for the soul podcast I'm your host Meg and today my guest is Elizabeth Husserl She's a financial advisor and an author of the book the power of enough finding joy in your relationship with money this book is Going to be my new go-to for anything related to money

I have read a lot of spiritual books about manifestation and abundance mindset. And this book just takes that to a whole nother level. There are practical tools in how to open up a conversation with money and really start to connect with yourself, your needs and your ability to experience the feeling of enough and the power of feeling enough. Even

when your financial circumstances may not be what you want them to be. So I hope you enjoy the episode and pick up a copy of her book and thanks for being here and enjoy the episode.

Meg Kearney (01:18)
welcome Elizabeth to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on today.

Elizabeth Husserl (01:23)
Meg, it's such a pleasure to be here.

Meg Kearney (01:25)
Thank you. I'm really excited to talk about your book, The Power of Enough, and about all things wealth. I know it's such a big topic. So for the listeners, can you give a little bit of your background and what you do in your current day-to-day job?

Elizabeth Husserl (01:42)
Yes, happy to. My name is Elizabeth. I'm a financial advisor and wealth manager but also kind money coach slash money therapist. My background is both equally economics and finance but also have a degree or a master's in psychology. So my two passions have been bringing together this idea of like how do economics and finance and personal finance meet spirituality and psychology. I've been doing that for 20 years and currently I'm a co-founder of a book

a boutique wealth planning firm called Peak 360 Wealth Management. in the Bay Area in California. And I do a lot of work with clients and their financial strategies, but also helping them understand wealth more holistically. And not just accumulate wealth, but how do we experience it?

Meg Kearney (02:30)
That's awesome. And that's a very unique approach, I would say, because I work for a financial services firm, and I don't work in the wealth management planning side of things. But I find that a lot of wealth planning these days seems to just be putting things into an algorithm, looking at just your financial goals and how much money you need to save to achieve those goals. So how do you?

Elizabeth Husserl (02:51)
Mm-hmm.

Meg Kearney (02:59)
kind of take psychology and this financial planning aspect and marry the two so that it's more of a holistic picture.

Elizabeth Husserl (03:08)
Yes, I mean that has been a lifelong journey, but I'll say a couple kind of just punctual things to highlight that. From a kind of more personal side, I was like chewing a bone to try to figure this out. And I remember working, I was at Schumacher College in England and it was named after the economist E.F. Schumacher who wrote this book called Small is Beautiful. And he was one of the first economists to really bring this idea of a triple bottom line, not just profit, but profit people and planet.

And so long story short, my mentor at the time was Satish Kumar and I'm like, Satish, how do I do it? How do I bring together economics and spirituality and finance and psychology? And he just looked at me with a twinkle in his eye. He was a wise old man, still alive. And he said, Elizabeth, don't try so hard. Go back to what the root of the word economics means, management of the household and start there. And so that's a big starting point that I encourage people to do is that as we try

to figure out financial strategies, we have to look at our household much more holistically than just the financial stability slice of the pie. It's a really important one. And I have a job for a reason, but wealth is a state of wellbeing that connects a lot of different needs that I'm sure we'll get into and talk about. And money is a tool and a technology. So think that's the key component is that money and wealth are different things. Money can't and shouldn't define us.

but we have to have a healthy relationship with it so we know how to use it in the financial stability slice of the pie, how it can be a resource for other things, but it cannot be the only resource that we depend on. And our experience of meaning and fulfillment isn't something that we will achieve after we have a certain level of money. It's something that we achieve every single day in our life. And the last thing I'll say before I let you squeeze in another question.

is that I deeply believe that the power of enough, of experiencing enough, knowing you are enough and that you actually have enough resources to create meaning and fulfillment is a birthright. And it's not a future retirement goal that we're trying to achieve. In fact, it's something that we can teach our kids, we can teach the next generation and we can start to cultivate in ourselves.

Meg Kearney (05:24)
I love that. I love this distinction between money and wealth. And the title of your book is so provocative and poignant and just so on point because I found a lot of this striving for more money is this sense of a lack of feeling as though what I have

Elizabeth Husserl (05:30)
Yeah.

Provocative. Yeah.

Meg Kearney (05:52)
and myself, just me as a being is enough. And so I love this idea of enough meaning money, but also these wellbeing practices that we have to cultivate within ourselves to really appreciate what we have. And there's so many, so many points I want to touch on from your book because it just touches on a lot. But I think what was helpful for me as I was reading in the beginning was this

Elizabeth Husserl (06:12)
and

Meg Kearney (06:21)
breakdown of the definition of money and also the definition of wealth and a little bit of the history of money as well because I have had the thought of let's just go back to the old days when everyone bartered and nobody used money and in your book you actually say that was never a thing so can you I don't know if there's a way to sum it up but can you talk about that concept

Elizabeth Husserl (06:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Right?

Yeah. And I would say it's not that it was never a thing. I mean, I'm sure people do barter back in the day and today as well, but I think what was more interesting is that money has always had four main roles, right? So again, if it's a tool, if it's a technology, right, it is a measure of value. It's a method of exchange. It's a store of value.

and it's a method for deferred payment on things. The form that money has taken has changed throughout history, right? It's been shells, it's been stones, it's been beads, it's been dollars, it's been foreign currency, it's been digital currency, right? Now it's an app on a phone, if you ask my teenager. And so if we know that the form of money changes but its functions are pretty consistent, right, then we're using money to participate, and I use that word intentionally, to participate in the material world.

It is a tool. And so think that's really important to see it as a tool. It's not good. It's not bad. It's neutral, right? It's not evil. It's not going to save me because we have all these emotions around it. It is just a tool. But what happens, and think this is a really important piece, is that when we lived in smaller communities, right, money had a function for exchange, right? It was less barter because when you barter, you kind of have to really figure out

the exact value of one thing for another and money actually allows that exchange to be so much more simplified because one thing might be just literally bigger in size and something else for different value. And so if we use it as a currency for exchange, it is super freaking functional, right? And a great tool. But in those smaller communities, we also had much more intimate relationships with each other. And I think that's the key piece, right? We knew how trustworthy we were.

because of how we showed up in the community. Did I do my role? Did I participate? Did I contribute? Did I do public service? Or did I lie? Did I cheat? Did I manipulate? Like we knew who we were just because we lived in closer contact with each other. In our more modern societies, we don't have that same level of intimacy with everyone we interact with. We have it with some of our friends.

but you don't really know who your banker is or you go into the bank and it changes from day to day, right? Or so much of what we're doing is virtually. It's like no one has an insurance broker anymore, right? And so what's happened is that money not only has its four functions, it has creeped into the realm of being how we determine trustworthiness amongst ourselves, right? And so

Credit worthiness is almost kind of like taken over for trustworthiness. What's your credit score? Does that make you a good human being? And that is why our relationship to money feels so icky because we're like, wait a second, why is someone determining how good I am as a person depending on how much money I have in my bank account? Right? And so that's where the shadow has started to creep up of like, wait a second, why have we let money be a stand in for our ability to trust each other?

build meaning in our lives and build intimate relationships. And so a lot of what I argue in the book is that we need to take that power back around finding intimacy and meaning and fulfillment and not depend or scapegoat money as that thing that gives us a sense of fulfillment. Because then we're in this endless cycle that we can't get off of and we just feel lack because the reality is

Meg Kearney (10:14)
Mm.

Elizabeth Husserl (10:25)
Money won't give you that deep sense of meaning. can play a role in it and it wants to participate with you, but it can't replace intimacy and it can't replace meaning. And that's why we feel like we're on this hamster wheel.

Meg Kearney (10:36)
Mm hmm. Yeah, money seems like the quick solution to all of our problems. And to your point, it's truly not because in your book, you mentioned that sometimes we're using money to cultivate a sense of belonging. And there are so many, so many ways I could go with this. But I one thing that really resonated with with me was this idea of

Elizabeth Husserl (10:45)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Meg Kearney (11:05)
brand tribalism, which I had literally never heard of until your book. And this is one of my money patterns. So can you explain brand tribalism and maybe some of the other ways that we try to use money to get those quick bids for belonging or connection?

Elizabeth Husserl (11:07)
Yeah.

huh.

Yeah,

yeah, that's a great question Meg because in reality when our communities have gotten so big, we use material things to signal cues, right? And so for example, when I was growing up and I think it still continues with my teenage daughter, the brand of jean you wear symbolizes a cue. A, am I paying attention, right, to fashion trends? Can I afford that level of jean? Fortunately the ones that might

daughter right now is tracking like not that expensive we can do one right but notice because because like you're walking down the street and instead of going in over and introducing ourselves like hey Meg I'm Elizabeth let me tell you let's find out who we are we don't do that we use material things to signify and cue I'm hip I'm in I'm belonging we should be friends right we do that on social media with likes and hearts and everything and again and and and and I'm not saying

Meg Kearney (11:51)
That's great.

Elizabeth Husserl (12:19)
that doesn't have a role, but it can't replace a true sense of belonging. Right? If you use brand tribalism to then approach someone and actually create a meaningful interaction from human to human, it served a purpose of opening a door. Right? But over time, if you can't go in and open that door and shake someone's hand, regardless of what you're wearing,

were revealing that you actually have a dependency on money to do it. It's almost like saying, have a dependency on a couple of cocktails to be chatty at a party. You know what I mean? It might help you at the beginning to be like, who is this chatty self? But can I get there without the cocktails? And if the answer is no, you're dependent on the cocktails. You're dependent on that outfit. You're dependent on that title. And the reality is that Warren Buffett said it so well. He said a true

Meg Kearney (12:58)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (13:17)
measure of someone's worth is who they are if they do not have any money. And so I think that's the piece is that like anything, our interactions with the material world through brands, through cocktails, through food, through experiences are super freaking awesome mirrors and doorways to know who we are. But can you also get back to who you are without the use of any of them? That's true wealth.

Meg Kearney (13:44)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's such a good point because if we have this sense of enough within ourselves, we might not feel the need to, like you said, go get a certain brand so that we perceive a certain way, we're perceived a certain way. also, I mean, I notice that because I practice this, I do brand tribalism, I notice other people's brands and I create a story about the person.

wearing the brand. And so if we have this awareness to not let it define us, we also will then be able to not let it define what we think about other people. So it's a very interesting concept.

Elizabeth Husserl (14:27)
Let me say one last thing here Meg, because I think it's really important, that some brands are also really popular because they're freaking good, right? Like there's a way in which like, and I don't have to name it, but I know my favorite brand of jeans because it is the most comfortable jean I wear. It's an expensive jean, so I buy one and I wear it till it can't be worn anymore.

Meg Kearney (14:35)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (14:50)
And I don't care if people see me in the exact same gene because A, I always get compliments on it, even if I wear it five days in a row, because it is a well-crafted garment. You know what I mean? And so think, and so again, there's not a judgment here. If you have a brand that works from a quality standpoint and then you see someone walking with it, you're like, I know why you have that gene. Awesome, right? By all means, embrace it. But I know I could be wearing leggings and I can go introduce myself. You know what I mean? And so again, it's that.

Meg Kearney (15:01)
Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (15:20)
piece of like, when is it really just something that brings you like my one pair of jeans just brings me so much satisfaction. I freaking love this pair of jeans. And when is it a crutch, right? And I think that's the subtle distinction.

Meg Kearney (15:31)
Hmm.

And I think the distinction is probably seeing how excited you got talking about those jeans. I'm going to have to get the name of them after, but if you feel excited about the product, you're like, I love this so much. then it's not, yeah, you can tell it's a good indicator of how you feel purchasing it and wearing it.

Elizabeth Husserl (15:43)
Yeah! Totally! Yeah!

Well,

totally and notice the difference that if I see you wearing those jeans, I'm going to go to you and like, my gosh, like, don't you love them? Right? It's a different interaction versus like, okay, you can wear that because you can afford to. Right? It's just a different entry point. And so, you know, you didn't say it when you introduced me, but the subtitle to the book, right? It's the power of enough finding joy in our relationship to money. And I think that's a key word joy because the reality is we are on this material plane.

Meg Kearney (15:59)
Mhm. Yup.

Elizabeth Husserl (16:20)
and we will be interacting with material goods and services our whole life. That's kind of what we signed up to do in this lifetime. And so by all means, find those material things that just like, satisfy you to the core. Consumption is a neutral act. It's not good, it's not bad, right? But the more we find those things to consume that nourish us, that give us a visceral feeling of being satiated,

Meg Kearney (16:36)
you

Elizabeth Husserl (16:48)
We're not chasing the endless pursuit of more and more and more because guess what? The things I have really satisfy me. That's really important, like quality over quantity. And it's not just quality because it's expensive, it's quality because I know which of my buckets it's filling.

Meg Kearney (16:54)
Mm-hmm.

That's a great point. And I want to talk about satiation in a little bit, but I think one of the things that this brought up that reminded me, I think in the spiritual world and this idea of manifesting abundance, one of the reasons I really liked your book is because I feel like it brings practicality to this idea of manifesting and

Elizabeth Husserl (17:34)
Yeah.

Meg Kearney (17:35)
In the book, believe you say that a lot of the rhetoric is a, I don't think you put it this way, but it's more of an egoic idea of what wealth means. So accumulation again of mass amounts of money or big houses or cars, and that's all fine and good if that's true to your sole desire. So I'm curious, how can we determine what it is that we really need to feel like we have enough?

Elizabeth Husserl (18:02)
Yeah.

Meg Kearney (18:03)
What would you recommend as a practice?

Elizabeth Husserl (18:04)
A hundred percent. Yeah. And so I would say less egoic, it's more mental, right? And I'm like, I love my mind. I have a super strong mind and my goodness, my mind does way too much work in my life. Right? And so it's like, and so what happens is that we use our mind center as the primary, the primary instrument to map out what we think abundance should look like.

Meg Kearney (18:09)
Mmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (18:30)
And notice what should look like in air quotes, right? Because it's what someone else tells me it should look like, because these are the strategies that are outlined on the internet, et cetera. And what happens is that our mind isn't the main center for a sense of fulfillment. That is a body center activity, right? And so I think what happens is that when we start to use all parts of ourselves, our mind, our heart, and our body to truly map out what wealth is as an experience,

Our mind goes, my God, thank God, I'm tired of trying to figure this out, right? Sometimes the abundance mindset is too much reliant on our mind trying to figure out what it looks like. But guess what? What it looks like isn't the same of what it feels like. And so that's a key addition to it is this concept that our body has an innate financial wisdom that gives us very clear concrete cues.

Meg Kearney (19:16)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (19:28)
of what strategies we are using that help us feel satiated and satisfied and fulfilled and what strategies just miss the mark, right? And sometimes we throw money at these strategies that miss the mark and we're like, well, that was wasteful. And I don't say that in critique. say that more like, me, that is not the best strategy for me to feel wealthy. So guess what, mind, let's just not do that anymore, right? That didn't bring me any sense of additional

resource or feeling of enough. And so I think that's the key component. Less about ego. I mean, I do think we're all on a soul journey, but I really think that the mind is tired. I know my mind is tired, right? And the mind's like, hey, rest of you, can you step up and add some input, some real data points to help us craft a wealth portfolio that is more diversified, right? And better suited at satisfying our needs.

Meg Kearney (20:07)
you

Yeah, definitely. And I know in your book you talk about the two other body centers in addition to the mind. So to give our mind that rest, how can we connect with our body and our heart are the two other centers that you mentioned, so that our mind is not the one doing everything all the time.

Elizabeth Husserl (20:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's a great question, Meg. And I would say the easiest, because you're right, I love practical tools, right? The book is chock full of them, but one of the easiest things that I tell people, if you were to start somewhere today, I would encourage you to do a 30-day satiation challenge. And so let me break that down. Satiation really means a sense of being fulfilled, like that hit the spot, right? And the easiest way to know what this means is think back.

at the last most nourishing meal you had where you're like, that was just so good. I'm feeling just so warm and like just content inside, right? Versus a meal that maybe felt like empty calories or you were rushing that you don't even remember what you ate. Like every single one of us knows the distinction between those two things. So I'm referring to that nourishing moment, right? Something, a moment that you just really felt nourished to your core. So at the end of every day,

Take a journal again. You don't have to buy one. Take a journal that you have and write down three things that satisfied you, right? Meg, you will make my journal tonight. I love meaningful conversations. So you will be one of my three things tonight. Right. And so for 30 days, right. Three things that satisfied you. They don't have to be easy things. This is really important. Sometimes we're satisfied when you nailed a big client problem. When you finished a hard task at work.

when you did that workout that you were dragging your feet to get to, right? When you tackled things in your life that maybe you're postponing. A lot of times that's what satisfies us, right? Because we learned different, we saw different parts of ourselves. So for 30 days, write those three things down. At the end of 30 days, sit down with a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, read through all 30 days in one sitting and start to see what patterns do you see.

What are those strategies that you are already naturally employing in your life that bring you satisfaction? Which of those strategies are using money and which ones aren't? And you're going to get so many great data points on, what is already working in my building of my wealth portfolio? And what can I potentially add more to, especially in some of the areas that I feel lack.

Meg Kearney (23:04)
Hmm. That's such a great. Yeah.

Elizabeth Husserl (23:06)
That was, yeah, I was gonna say that was

the body center one. As soon as I stopped talking, I'm like, I forgot to answer the heart one, but let me just pause for a second.

Meg Kearney (23:12)
Yes, please.

Yeah, I love that. think that's a great practice in three things. mean, who can't think of three things in their day that satisfy them? So I think that's such a great point and great to be able to reflect on it and give yourself some insight because we kind of go through our day to day and we're not thinking about these things. But if you look back at it after a month, then you have some pretty good information.

Elizabeth Husserl (23:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so the heart is actually super similar and I think there's a bigger framework that we'll get to called the wealth mandala. But with the heart, I'm to use gratitude almost as in contrast to satiation because people get those two things confused. Satiation is visceral, right? When you feel satisfied. Gratitude is more of a heart center where I feel love, right? And so start to pay attention to what are those moments in the day where you felt love.

Meg Kearney (23:42)
Body, great. Heart, let's hear it.

Mm.

Elizabeth Husserl (24:12)
And what's really interesting is that when we talk about love and relationships, it's kind of like talking about money and wealth. Relationships are those tools that we use to connect to love. Love is the essential state, right? Much like wealth is an essential state. And so start to see what are those ways in which you feel connected to love in your day? What are the techniques and tools you're using similar to like how are you using money to create wealth, right? Or to create financial stability?

So the same thing is that you can do your 30 day satiation challenge and follow it right up with a 30 day gratitude challenge. Compare the two, right? You'll get different insight when you do that.

Meg Kearney (24:54)
Yeah, that's definitely interesting and helpful to note the difference between the two because we hear a lot of gratitude practice and gratitude this and I do think it's a great practice and I think it's also nice to have something different too to supplement that with. So I love that. And kind of shifting gears a little bit. I'm curious if you've noticed any

similarities between how people in your practice relate to money and how they relate to other things in their lives. Because it's, yeah, it's just an interesting thought and I'm just wondering if you have any insight in that.

Elizabeth Husserl (25:35)
Yes.

Yeah,

100%. Yes, mean, like hands down, we have relational patterns and behaviors that are consistent with how we relate to many things in our lives, right? And I think that's one of the things that I bring up in chapter three is that I give a very clear tool on how to get super clear on what your relationship to money is by sitting down and having a conversation with it. So I outline all of that in chapter three.

But I know for myself and I tell my personal story as well is that when I sat down and I had a conversation with money, money very clearly pointed out that I was smothering it, that I had undue expectations, right? I needed it to be everything. And once I had that conversation with money, Meg, I was like, my God, that's how I treat my boyfriends, right? Or that's how I've trep, like treat, you know, sometimes like my daughter. I can at times have an anxious attachment.

Meg Kearney (26:32)
Mm-hmm.

you

Elizabeth Husserl (26:35)
Right? When

I get stressed, I grab. That's exactly what I was doing with money. That's exactly what I've done with boyfriends and they're like, back off. Right? And so a lot of times when we go to therapy, when we do our work on ourselves, we realize that my inavoidant attachment, do I have anxious attachment? Am I codependent? Those styles, your relational styles is often what you're going to see reflected in your relationship to money. That is why I say that our relationship to money is another mirror of knowing who we are.

I feel very fortunate as a financial planner and wealth advisor, people come to talk to me about money, but a lot of times what they're really wanting is to talk to me about themselves. And I say that with so much loving kindness because I'm able to then use a relationship to money to understand what are the ways that they're potentially sabotaging their biggest dreams or potentially they're not taking responsibility for something that they have to. So, 100%, we are...

Meg Kearney (27:14)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (27:32)
Habitual beings and our habits leak into many of our relationships in our lives.

Meg Kearney (27:33)
Mm.

Yep, definitely. I have the anxious avoidance. So I've noticed, you know, sometimes I love money. Sometimes I feel like I don't need it, you know. So it's very interesting to think about it that way. And can you expand a little more on conversations with money? Because I think this is such a helpful tool. And I...

Elizabeth Husserl (27:50)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Meg Kearney (28:06)
can imagine it might be difficult at first to really get into the conversation and allow, I would say I'd have no problem speaking to money, but allowing money to speak through me. So can you talk about the practice a little more?

Elizabeth Husserl (28:11)
Yeah.

% yeah and I'll grab my little money tool back here and so it is a Gestalt or Gestalt chair exercise which is an empty chair exercise that's used in therapy and I say that intentionally too because if you're like, I don't know if I can do this by myself bring it to your therapist he or she or they can hold that space for you bring it to a friend to hold that space for you because I feel like when we're being witnessed we kind of like something some something magical happens right

Meg Kearney (28:47)
Mm.

Elizabeth Husserl (28:47)
And so

the way that this works is that you first choose a money object, right? I have my little money jar with currencies from all over the world in my $20 bill. So this wasn't the first money object I spoke to. When I was in my early 20s, my money object at the time was a credit card that had a lot of debt that I was working through, and I was freaking angry at it, right? So choose an object that potentially stirs some emotion. That's when it really starts to work. Then you set up

the space to have the conversation. So imagine two chairs, you are in one chair and your money object physically goes in the other chair, right? Then Meg, you decide how close or how far you want these chairs to be, right? Some people are like, money, I need a little more space. And they push the chair away. Money, need you little more closer. And they bring the chair closer. just figure, mean, A, even placement of the chairs tells you something about your relationship to money. Then I tell people, if you're doing it yourself, put a timer on your phone, right? Give yourself

Meg Kearney (29:37)
you

Elizabeth Husserl (29:44)
Maybe three minutes. Five can be a little long. Give yourself three minutes. You put the timer on and just trust that whatever you need to say gets said. And in reality, it's almost like you hear a knock on the door. Money sits in front of you and what's the first thing you would say to it? Not from a story place of like, let me tell you my life story, but money, God damn it. Where have you been? Or, my God, it's so good to see you. Like really let yourself get into the eye person emotion around it.

When the timer goes off, trust that whatever you needed to get said in that little time period got said. Physically stand up, go to the other chair, hold the money object in your lap, don't think twice, put the timer on, and now you're responding, right? And if it's too hard to think I'm channeling money, be like, if you were your best friend and you just heard all of this got said to you, what would you say back?

Do not hold back, do not edit, just what's the first thing that comes out of your mouth? That is the magic, right? What is the first reaction to what just got said, right? You get to do, so money gets the same three minutes, then you can respond for another three minutes, but money always gets the last word. That's really important. This is a conversation, it's not a monologue. We're not speaking at money. Sometimes, if that's too hard,

Meg Kearney (30:47)
you

Elizabeth Husserl (31:10)
two alternatives, try to journal this out, right? Put the timer and just like free, free, right? Timer goes off, line under. Now you switch money or money or whoever's responding to that is responding, right? What is that dialogue? Or if you have someone who's witnessing you, sometimes I'll see Meg that when you get in the money chair, you just kind of like freeze. like, I don't know what to say. The person who's holding the space for you can gently say, Hey, this is what I heard that person say.

And once you hear it reflected back, you're like, oh yeah, this is my reaction to that. That's a tough, right? And so that's how you can get around a little bit. The resistance, although I will say everyone feels resistance. I feel resistance when I sit down and have this conversation because you know, it's kind of like going to couples therapy. You kind of walk in there and your temperature drops. You're like, I cannot believe I'm doing this. Right. And you walk out and you're like, that was really helpful and insightful. Even if it gets contentious, things get aired.

Meg Kearney (31:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Elizabeth Husserl (32:08)
Right? So, you know, if you're feeling resistance, you are human, you are on the right track. I would still encourage you to give it a try. If you get stuck, ask for help. You know, call someone and say, Hey, will you try this crazy wacky thing that I just discovered? And let's see what happens.

Meg Kearney (32:18)
Yeah.

It honestly sounds kind of fun, like a fun practice to do, because who doesn't wish they could talk to money? I definitely have some feelings that I would love to get out towards money, and I think it's a great practice. I'm curious, have you noticed over time that the conversations you're having with money are different?

Elizabeth Husserl (32:47)
100%.

Yeah, 100%. And so what I would say is at the beginning, practice regularly, right? It's not like you went to therapy once and everything got solved, right? Or it's like you said hello to your partner on the first of the year and you don't have to talk to them for the rest of the year. They'd hate you, right? And so the same thing, us as a relationship, like how...

Meg Kearney (32:55)
Mm.

Yeah.

Elizabeth Husserl (33:08)
is someone's day in relationship is that, you know, they like getting texts from time to time. They like being tracked. They like being checked in. So it's the same thing. The same way you like receiving in relationship, you should give in this relationship to money. So number one, keep it consistent. So again, as you can tell, I like 30 day challenges. When I first started, I would sit down and this is the first thing I would do every morning. It doesn't have to be more than 10 minutes. I would warm up my cup of tea. I'd have my conversation with money. I'd go on with my day.

And it's amazing how that just built a muscle. Now, you know, that was 20 years ago. I have money objects all around my house, much like I have framed pictures of my family. And so when I see a money object, I'll just touch and say, hello, right? And so I'm just in constant conversation. And then when I need it, so for example, you know, a couple of weeks ago, the market pulled back, right? The stock market pulled back. and.

Every time that happens, I get a flurry of emails from clients who are scared. The timing, the timing's never right, right? But the timing was particularly not right because I was on tour for book events. I was in New Orleans and in Dallas and I was like, I don't have time for this and it is my job so I have to make time for it. But I had the longest day Meg. I was so flustered. I got home and I'm like, I'm so charged right now. I have to sit down and have a conversation with money. If not, I'm going to chew.

Meg Kearney (34:10)
you

you

Elizabeth Husserl (34:35)
my parents' heads off, right? I was visiting my parents in New Orleans. So I pulled out money, I was traveling, so I'm like, what cash do I have in my wallet? I had a $50 bill, like, ooh, I'll talk to a $50 bill. And I sat down, I'm like, God damn it, money, bad timing. What the hell? Like, this is not what I needed today. And I just like got it off my chest. And I'm like, and then money, first question is like, why are you so stressed? And so I went back to my little seat, I'm like, money, I feel responsible.

I feel responsible when the market goes down because all these people look to me to make good decisions and to guide them through this. And then money was like, Elizabeth, remember, your job is to respond to them, but you are not responsible for their feelings. And I was like, that's good money. Thank you. Thank you for that reminder. Right. And so it just, something in me started to shift like, my gosh, money is so right.

Meg Kearney (35:03)
you

you

you

Elizabeth Husserl (35:30)
I have to respond with genuine care and concern. That is my job, but I'm not responsible for it. And I was feeling this weight of responsibility and money helped me clarify that, right? And so it's been 20 years that I've been talking to money and I may not talk as often as I used to, much like, you know, like my husband and I can sometimes pass each other at night, but my husband and I, every weekend sit down and have meaningful conversations. So I will find time.

to actively have meaningful conversations with money and sometimes it's out of desperation like we have to talk, right? So it is such a lifelong tool.

Meg Kearney (36:09)
Mm You can really look at money as a as your guide, which you do talk about in the book as a teacher, a mirror. And yeah, a friend. Yep. Yep. A collaborator. Yes. And also, I think it's so helpful to have to just give yourself permission to say what you're thinking because it's so easy to get stuck up here.

Elizabeth Husserl (36:17)
Yeah. A friend! I was like, that was great advice!

Yeah.

Meg Kearney (36:36)
and in your thoughts and it never releases anywhere. So to actually speak it, you're really releasing that energy that's up here in your mind and.

Elizabeth Husserl (36:39)
Yeah.

And I think to your initial question Meg, how do we bring the mind, the heart and the body center, right? That is one tool, the conversations with money, where I create the space to really express my emotions so my heart center gets like, blah. I get to move it through my body so that I don't build resentment or whatever. I get to release it and then my mind gets to have a moment of insight and clarity. So it's a really great technique that brings all three things together.

Meg Kearney (37:13)
Mm.

Elizabeth Husserl (37:13)
which I had

not made a connection until we had this conversation. So thank you for that.

Meg Kearney (37:18)
Great. I love making connections. It's awesome. And I know as a financial advisor, especially right now, your job is stressful. There's a lot. It's not your responsibility, but you are people's touch point, go to. And so it reminded me of one of the things in your book because

Elizabeth Husserl (37:20)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

go to. Yeah.

Meg Kearney (37:44)
sometimes when the market fluctuates like this, it can bring up these feelings of scarcity, of lack, and you talk about, I forget what you call it, scarcity something cycle, I think, yes, okay, and then the meaning and fulfillment cycle, right? So can you talk about those and how those can help us in times like this?

Elizabeth Husserl (37:57)
The scarcity-abundance cycle.

Yup. Yup.

a hundred percent

right and so because what happens right especially when there's market pullbacks we go zoom we get scared right we're like we're losing money in our bank accounts or investments accounts probably more in our investment accounts right but what happens is that when we feel scared and we contract our reaction is to want to grab onto more right and so that's where we get stuck in the like I'm trying to push scarcity away or feeling seriously way by grabbing onto more right or actually

more and more. And so then we get stuck in this abundance of like, how much is more more? How much money would make me feel safe? Right. And that's where abundance doesn't quite solve for scarcity. Right. That's the argument. The abundance mindset does help us see the glass half full versus half empty. It definitely has a role, but we're still stuck in this cycle of scarcity because I'm trying to overreach to push away these feelings that are making me uncomfortable.

Right? And if you look at my body, when I'm pushing something or grasping, I'm still pretty tense. This is not a relaxed state of being. And so what I argue is like, okay, let, let go of that for a second. Let's just be with the fact that you're feeling scarce, that you're feeling lacked, that you're feeling scared. Right? Let's just be with that. That is part of the human cycle. How do we get back to that sense of core of really getting clear? What am I scared about? Right? What gives me a true sense of security and safety? Which areas of my wealth?

map are truly on fire. And then how can I lean into the meaning fulfillment cycle, which brings the wisdom of the heart and the body to feel fulfilled even when there is cycles in the market. And that is how I start to balance some of the cycles I do not have control on. Right? We will never control nature cycles, nor money cycles.

Meg Kearney (40:02)
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (40:03)
Right? They will always have a cycle between growth, recession, depression, growing leaves, losing leaves. Right? We don't fight it so much with nature, but we fight it with money. And if we start to recognize there are areas in our lives that are just genuinely cyclical, I can start to find how do I strengthen my core to be in relationship to cycles. And the ultimate cycle is life and death.

Right? So is this just a practice for us to be in better relationship with death? I don't know. I hadn't gone that far, but you know what I mean? Like who am I in relationship to cycles? And so by bringing in the meaning in fulfillment and having both of those cycles held by a satiation paradigm, the paradigm of finding true fulfillment, then we can relax the tension that we feel when we try to push scarcity away.

and grasp abundance.

Meg Kearney (41:03)
That was so powerful. I got chills when you said the part about nature and how it's cyclical. we talk a lot in finance about diversifying our investment portfolio. And we also need to do that in life too. We can't just have money as our sole source of meaning, fulfillment, safety. It has to be a whole comprehensive picture. So we can ride these cycles out, like you said.

Elizabeth Husserl (41:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

100 % and so I know we're getting to the end of the podcast and I want to make sure that we speak to this piece around the pragmatic what exactly is wealth as a state of well-being because if I just leave it that way Meg it's way too abstract and so Yeah, and so let me just expand a little bit and I go into great detail in the book So I would encourage people to if you're listening to buy the book but not for it to just like accumulate dust on your nightstand The book will take you on a journey that every single one of us

Meg Kearney (41:41)
Mmm.

No, you have to expand.

Elizabeth Husserl (42:02)
should go on because we're in relationship to money, right? You can do it through my book, you can do through a different book, but take time to cultivate this relationship. But what I talk about in Chapter 7 and beyond is this idea of a wealth map, or I use the word mandala, which is a Sanskrit word for circle, and I chose that word on purpose because a mandala is a tool that takes us from suffering back to joy, right? So again, you'll see the

the patterns or the, I really rely on this quality of joy. And so it's based on the science of human needs. We know human needs through Maslow. He's who made it kind of more popularized because he brought this idea of like our survival needs, food, shelter, et cetera. He brought this idea of self actualization. How do we bring growth and transformation to the conversation around needs, which is great. He was a pioneer in his times. Maslow did not.

put it into the shape of a pyramid, right? That was something that a corporate management company did in the 60s. And it kind of has led to this idea of like the corporate ladder. Maslow spoke about needs much more kind of horizontal. And so I took his work around needs. I took the additional work of another economist, Manfred Max Neve, who brought this idea of satisfiers. How do we satisfy our needs? And he brought a really important point. Human needs are universal.

The way we satisfy them are unique and personal. That's where we find agency and design. But if we take these 12 needs, right, and I put them in a wealth map, which you can get through the book, you can also download on my website for free, the need for financial stability is in relationship to our need for safety, physical health, freedom, purpose, understanding, participation, belonging, connection.

Meg Kearney (43:29)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (43:56)
curiosity, leisure, and touch. And if we start to look at wealth as the portfolio of satisfying those different needs, we start to get really strategic on which satisfiers, one, bring a sense of fulfillment to me. What may fulfill me may not fulfill you, Meg. And then two, which of these strategies require the use of money as a resource and which strategies are non-monetary.

I still satisfy the need, not without. I still satisfy the need, but not with the use of money. And that's what also starts to free us from the dependency of money to satisfy the needs. And we start to see wealth as a much more broader portfolio, and our strategies become diversified, and our ways of feeling fulfilled become diversified. And we don't just keep the view and the focus on the financial stability, and keep throwing this idea that we need to make more money to feel more happy.

we start to realize actually maybe that slice of the pie is stable, maybe it's full, maybe it's not, maybe it's on fire, but I'm clear on what I need to do. Let me touch into these other aspects of my life to see how are they doing. Am I feeling lack and poverty in any of these other areas? I need to address that equally important to my financial stability.

Meg Kearney (45:17)
so important. It's so key. And yeah, I just think that there's so much focus sometimes on money. And I love the work that you're doing so much to help really a real live holistic picture of money and people's lives. And so I'll, I'll leave you with this final question. What

what would this look like in the world? What do you imagine the world would be like if everybody really dived into their relationship with money and put these practices into play?

Elizabeth Husserl (45:57)
my goodness, for those of you who can't see me, her question just made me wiggle of happiness, right? It's kind of like when you pet a dog and they just start tail wagging. I started tail wagging because my goodness, if we each had an ongoing dynamic conversation with money, which that sometimes could be super challenging, but if we had a dynamic conversation with money, it's almost like saying everyone learned how to be in good communications.

you know, in their relationships, we would be happier, healthier human beings, right? So that's the first thing that comes up. And the second thing is I think the more we start to get super crystal clear on what is important in our wealth mandala, I think we become more culturally and creative humans and we become better at channeling resources to those things that bring impact and that bring our sense of purpose and participation to life. And

my goodness the creativity that would be possible I think we would start to dream in the world that we think is possible that sometimes are like what just what's happening in the world right and so I think the world would be such a better place and we would release our dependency on money which would help bring down the level of power that we give to money that does not feel good and people feel at sometimes powerless but the more we start to

Meg Kearney (47:05)
Hmm.

Elizabeth Husserl (47:24)
take responsibility for our relationship to money, take responsibility for how we build our sense of wealth, the power that we give money would start to go down and that would bring balance to the world.

Meg Kearney (47:37)
I love that. So inspiring. Your book is definitely a great first step for anybody who's looking to dive into money and change their relationship with it. for listeners that are resonating and would like to connect with you, get your book, where's the best place for them to find you?

Elizabeth Husserl (47:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, two places. For more kind of like fun connections, go to my Instagram. It's at Elizabeth Husserl. I post often little videos, little vignettes, moments of meaning. So please connect there. And then for a lot of just great resources and podcast links and know exercises that I have in my book, go to my website which is Elizabeth Husserl, H-U-S-S-E-R-L dot com and go to the resource page and you'll find a bunch of stuff there.

Meg Kearney (48:26)
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Elizabeth. This has been such a pleasure.

Elizabeth Husserl (48:30)
Thank you, Meg, for having me. Such a pleasure to be here.

Meg Kearney (48:41)
Thank you so much for tuning in today to this episode. I hope it was helpful and I hope it broadened your perspective on money And I would offer for you to try a couple of those practices that Elizabeth mentioned, whether you do a 30 day satiation practice or a 30 day gratitude practice, or if you want to be really brave and you try to have your own

conversation with money, I truly think that opening yourself up and really diving into how you use money and why will just contribute to your overall overall feeling of wealth, abundance and well-being. So thanks so much for listening and I hope to see you on the next podcast episode. Much love to you all. Have a great day.